Bossing It: Sticking With Your Values with John Marshall and Ryan O’Connell

jnr. co-founders - managing director John Marshall and chief strategy officer Ryan O’Connell - met 12 years ago, when they were serendipitously sat together on Ryan’s first day at Ogilvy Sydney. As colleagues, they went on to lead the Coca-Cola, Nestle, and Lion businesses together, but as friends they always dreamed of opening their own agency. 

The dream remained just that for five years, as John returned home to New Zealand to set-up the then WiTH Collective New Zealand offering, before being named national general manager of Special New Zealand, which, under his leadership, was named Global Agency and New Zealand Most Effective Agency of the Year in 2023, amongst a plethora of other achievements and awards. 

Meanwhile, Ryan stayed at Ogilvy, and as chief strategy officer, helped the Sydney office become an effectiveness powerhouse, being named the second most effective agency in the world in 2022. He was also named Campaign Asia’s Planner of the Year for three years straight, in 2021, 2022, and 2023. 

Despite clearly holding each other back when they worked together – as evidenced by the 50+ combined Effies they won whilst apart – the duo made the foolish decision to reunite. With plenty of ‘gentle encouragement’ from their wives to “shut up and do it!”, on 1 February 2024, the dream of starting their own agency became a reality, and jnr. opened its doors. 

LBB> What was your first experience of leadership?

Ryan> To be honest, mine was through sport. It will shock many people (who know I’m not that tall!) to learn that I played representative basketball until I was 21 or 22 years of age, and I was the captain of the majority of the teams I played in. As such, my first experience with leadership was being the leader of said teams.

There’s plenty of things I learnt about leadership - and myself – during my playing days that I have continued to use in the corporate world: treating people equally, leading by example, knowing what buttons to push, and when to motivate people. 

John> I’m like Ryano – no, not the height deficiency – in that my first experience of leadership was through sport. I captained a lot of my footy teams (rugby union, rugby league and touch) growing up. The beauty - and the challenge - of team sports is that everyone is different: we play different positions, have different skillsets, different talents, different body shapes, we come from different places, and at times we even speak different languages.

I learnt at a young age that for the team to be successful you all need to be moving in the same direction, as one. That’s  equally true when it comes to the teams you lead in our industry. 

LBB> How did you figure out what kind of leader you wanted to be – or what kind of leader you didn’t want to be?

John> Through my Koro (grandfather). He taught me if you say you’re going to do something, then you make sure you do it, no matter how hard it is. That’s been one of my guiding principles around leadership: stick to your word, and more importantly, stick to your values, no matter how hard it may be at times.

Ryan> Over the course of my career, I’ve naturally had many bosses, and I’ve taken leadership cues and lessons from every single one of them, both good and bad. When good leadership qualities were evident, I made a conscious effort to recognise them and try to adopt them.

Yet equally, I think it’s just as important to be cognisant of the poor leadership qualities you experience, and to make sure you don’t emulate them. I can’t necessarily articulate the type of leader I wanted to be, but I was aware of how I wanted to conduct, and not conduct, myself.

LBB> What experience or moment gave you your biggest lesson in leadership? 

John and Ryan> It’s not a pleasant story, unfortunately, but when David Fox – ‘Foxy’ for those that know him – was in his very first week as CEO of Ogilvy Australia, we had a tragic incident in the Sydney office. We won’t go into the details, but almost the entire agency was in a state of shock and sadness. Foxy, despite barely having his feet under the desk, almost literally put his arm around everyone affected, and let them know work did not matter in that moment.

It allowed everyone to process and deal with the news in their own way and their own time. For the both of us, it was a great lesson that real leadership is what you do in the tough times, not the great times. 

LBB> Did you know you always wanted to take on a leadership role? If so, how did you work towards it and if not, when did you start realising that you had it in you?

Ryan> The position I played in basketball (point guard) is essentially a leadership position. You have to be vocal, call the plays, direct your teammates, make sure everyone is getting the ball, and even motivate them.

When you do that for 10+ years, it’s something you naturally carry across into other parts of your life, including the business world. That helped me feel like I had leadership capabilities in me well before I even got into advertising. 

John> I’m the eldest in a Māori family, so ‘leading’ has always been a given. Whether that be my whānau (family), in sport, or in business. However, I’ve had to do a lot of work on being a ‘good leader’, and in all honesty, I know I still have a long way to go. My feeling is that you’re never a complete leader. Leadership is a skill you must constantly keep working on. 

LBB> What are the aspects of leadership that you find most personally challenging? And how do you work through them?

Ryan> Letting someone go never gets any easier. You might, sadly, get better at it, but that doesn’t make it easier. I’ve never taken lightly the reality that you’re responsible for people’s career/salary, and how important that is to them and their livelihoods. So, when you need to let people go – whatever the reason – you feel pretty shit. That’s been a challenge for me from day one, and I suspect it always will be. I’ve found being completely honest with people does help a  little, so that’s how I have worked through it. 

John> I try to avoid agreeing with Ryan for my own sanity, but in this case, it’s exactly what he said. It’s the part of leadership that sucks. 

LBB> Have you ever felt like you've failed whilst in charge? How did you address the issue and what did you learn from it? 

John> Yes, plenty of times.

In a previous role, we were going through a particularly tough time from a financial point of view. As the leader of the agency, I felt like I had to double down and really focus on the clients and their business to help drive revenue. As a result, the team became less of a focus for me. One colleague pulled me aside and called me out for not caring about them. I was pretty upset about it, because I actually cared deeply about them, but I had lost sight of what makes a successful, and ultimately profitable, agency: the people.

The people make the work, the work makes the money, the money makes the agency. Not the other way round. I’d forgotten that, and that was a failure of mine.

Ryan> Oh, I’ve failed numerous times! And will no doubt continue to do so in the future.

However, my biggest failure was letting an issue within a department fester for far too long. There was a problem that was proving corrosive to the team culture, and I genuinely thought it would naturally work itself out. It didn’t, and I had to step in and do something, but a lot of damage – some irreparable – had already been done.

The lesson I learnt is that leaders need to be decisive. If I’m truly honest, I put off addressing it because I knew it was going to be a difficult chat and/or decision, so I was hoping I wouldn’t have to do it. If I’d nipped in the bud when I knew it was already a problem, it would have prevented a lot of drama. Lesson learnt. 

LBB> In terms of leadership and openness, what’s your approach there? 

John> One of our big beliefs at jnr. is “Honesty is the best policy”, and we try to live up to that in every single conversation, interaction and scenario. We find it does become somewhat contagious, and while not always easy, being honest is always the best course of action. 

Ryan> I think you could ask any person that I’ve have had the responsibility of leading, and even those who weren’t my biggest fans would still say that at least I’m honest. I’ve made a point of always telling the truth. Sometimes bluntly, and sometimes to my detriment, but I’ve always been consistent.

I’ve made plenty of mistakes as a leader, but I can hand-on-heart say that a lack of honesty and/or openness has never been one of them. What I have needed to work on, is how that honesty is delivered, because often there’s a need for it to be empathetic, compassionate or gentle. 

LBB> As you developed your leadership skills did you have a mentor, if so who were/are they and what have you learned? And on the flip side, do you mentor any aspiring leaders and how do you approach that relationship?

John> I have to give a shout out to my very first mentor, Trevor Shailer, as he was the reason I fell into and fell in love with this industry in the first place. He taught me that being Māori in our industry is a superpower. For two reasons: firstly, Māori are natural born storytellers, and this is a storytelling business. And secondly, this is a people business, and in te ao Māori we see the world through the collective, not the individual.

Ryan> It would be unfair for me to single out one mentor I’ve had when it came to leadership, as I’ve been lucky enough to have a whole collection of people. As I said, I’ve learnt something from every boss I’ve ever had. In terms of mentoring others, my approach is encouraging people to ask me questions. I’ll always make the time to answer, and I’ll always answer honestly. I’ve been fortunate enough to receive plenty of helpful advice and guidance in my career, and I’ve always been mindful of ‘paying it forward’. 

LBB> In continually changing market circumstances, how do you cope with the responsibility of leading a team through difficult waters? 

John and Ryan> Transparency. Total and complete transparency. In many ways, uncertainty is the worst state for the human brain to be in. When things are tough, difficult, or less than ideal, at jnr. we find its better to acknowledge them and communicate them. A team being completely aware of what’s going, and its leaders being honest and upfront, tends to take away a lot of anxiety and angst, which can only be a good thing.

LBB> As a leader, what are some of the ways in which you’ve prioritised diversity and inclusion within your workforce? 

John> I think diversity can often be a ‘box ticking’ exercise in our industry. For me it’s not only about hiring people from diverse cultures and backgrounds, but also giving them the space, time, and a seat at the table to bring their diverse view of the world to the workplace.

The other issue we have in our industry is the pathways into it are very traditional and hierarchical. One thing I have done previously, and which we will be launching this year at jnr., is an indigenous pathways programme into the creative industry. Watch this space, whānau. 

LBB> How important is your company culture to the success of your business? And how have you managed to keep it alive with increases in remote and hybrid working patterns?

John and Ryan> Culture is vital in any successful organisation, and jnr. certainly aspires to be that. However, in our experience, the biggest mistake companies make is when they try to define or articulate what their culture is or should be. To be blunt, that’s just not how it works. Culture is driven by behaviours, not words. We therefore try to lead by example with how we behave. 

In terms of keeping our culture alive, jnr. is a Trans-Tasman business: we’re one agency, but with footprints in Australia and New Zealand. Given this remote/hybrid working environment, communication is key. It sounds obvious, and that’s because it is, but maintaining a constant dialogue with the team is vital.

Regular agency catch-ups for official meetings (the week ahead, WIPs, reviews, etc), plus WhatsApp for the lighter – but equally important – moments of banter. Especially Dua Lipa GIFs. (Don’t ask.) Oh, and ensuring everyone has one of our awesome agency hoodies too! 

LBB> What are the most useful resources you’ve found to help you along your leadership journey?

John and Ryan> The best ‘resource’ is listening and learning from those you lead, and your peers. That means creating a space where you can take on feedback, both good and bad, and learn from it. We want that to be a hallmark of jnr. As such, we have a bi-weekly "honesty and modesty session" as leaders. We formally check-in on each other, give constructive criticism, praise each other (which is very hard for the both of us!), and try to help each other be better leaders.