CMOs Should Act Like Nirvana… You’re Going to Get Fired Anyway!

Geoff Cottrill is a marketing veteran with experience at a veritable who’s who of household names. After spending the first 11 years of his career in sales at Procter & Gamble, his journey has taken him to brand marketing roles at Coca-Cola, Starbucks, Converse and even agency-side as president at MullenLowe in Boston.

Though not a musician himself — perhaps surprising, being the father of singer-songwriter Clairo – Geoff is a music fanatic, which shaped much of his marketing success at various brands. At Starbucks, Geoff got to lead product development at the coffee chain’s Hear Music record label, even creating one of the world’s largest listening parties alongside record-store concerts for Paul McCartney.

And at Converse, he led the artist collaboration series, ‘Three Artists, One Song’, which brought together the likes of Pharell, Frank Ocean, Kid Cudi and more, as well as launching the shoe brand’s recording studio and undiscovered artists programme, ‘Rubber Tracks’.

Most recently, Geoff announced his retirement after a three-year stint as chief brand and games officer at Topgolf - where the admitted non-golfer had ‘the absolute time of his life’ making the game more accessible.

Speaking with Music and Strategy’s founding partner and president, James Alvich, and partner and EP, Gabe McDonough, Geoff discusses some of his career highlights and insights, music’s role in marketing, and why brands should be like Nirvana.

^{Above: Music and Strategy's James Alvich and Gabe McDonough}

MAS> Geoff, you’ve got a really creative family - what’s that like?

Geoff> I was a complete dork when I met my wife. She was an art / creative director at an ad agency. And I was always like, ‘Wow… so creative’. Meanwhile, I was over here thinking, ‘I’m such a dork’. She started to say, ‘Hey, you’re actually really creative’. And I’d say, ‘I don’t think you understand – no, I’m not’. Where I worked, you weren’t allowed to be creative. You were supposed to do things a certain way. So I have her to thank for any creative recognition I’ve ever received.

I’m still completely dwarfed standing next to her. She’s a great children’s fashion photographer. And then there’s our daughter Abby doing really well as a commercial producer, and she quietly takes the most amazing photos. And our other daughter, Claire [AKA singer-songwriter, Clairo], who’s done quite well in music.

So I am by far the least creative person in the family. I’m super lucky and incredibly proud. Being surrounded by creativity is a lot of fun because we’re always talking about some weird thing I’d never have been exposed to without those three… But I’m definitely the dork in the family, for sure.

MAS> You’ve just announced your retirement, but how did you bring your learnings from working with music in marketing to your last role at Topgolf?

Geoff> This was an opportunity for me to not do that again. To not be the ‘music guy’. It was a chance to apply the same disruptive and unusual thinking to something new. I found the skills, the mindset and creativity transferable. When I got there, a lot of people asked, ‘Are you going to start doing concerts?’. And I said, ‘I don’t know… that doesn’t sound like what we do’.

I spent a lot of time earlier in my career working in and around music, but also working in and around youth culture, skateboarding and street art – that amazing community taught me so much. Then I came to Topgolf and I started to see the people who helped shape street culture – a little older now, their backs hurt, their knees hurt – not playing hoops as much anymore, and they’re definitely not skateboarding as much. They’re starting to play golf! Suddenly, you’re seeing this streetwear and skateboarding influence coming into golf, especially with the younger, new wave of people joining the game.

We started doing all these cool things with brands like Jain Golf, Malbon and others. We were hosting events, collaborating and creating experiences. We found ourselves in this amazing position – as this engine to bring new energy to the game.

^{Above: Topgolf - 'Everyone's Game'}

MAS> You’ve said before that you like to ‘look in the quiet places’ – it seems you did that at Topgolf!

Geoff> The brand marketing world is full of copycats. One person does something, it shows up in Ad Age, and suddenly everybody has to do that thing… If you take a copy of Golf Digest and look at the first 30 pages, all the ads are basically the same – just a different logo: ‘Our ball goes farthest’. ‘Our club hits hardest’. You start joking, if every year I gain 10 yards on my drive, eventually I won’t even need a putter, right?

I was like, ‘We’re not about distance… We’re about play. We’re about having fun and encouraging people not to forget that playful mindset’.That’s what we stood for at Topgolf, and I think we made some really good progress. We’d say that we’re golf... but we’re not golf. And when you claim the ‘not golf’ side, you’re allowed to do different, interesting, weird things. Most people who come to Topgolf are never going to play traditional golf, ever. What I wanted was to make that first memory with golf a happy one.

MAS> When it comes to using music in marketing, you always put the culture first. With some brands, you organised concerts, but with Topgolf and others, there’s a lighter touch…

Geoff> At Topgolf, we didn’t have any rights in music culture.

MAS> That’s interesting, what do you mean by that?

Geoff> You have to earn it! Let’s face it: most brands buy their way into music. They say, ‘we’re going to use music’. And for me, that word ‘use’ is a red flashing light. That inherently means I’m going to take something from you for my benefit. Versus: I want to participate and contribute to the culture.

[At Converse] we wanted to sell sneakers to people who love music. So first, we needed to support musicians and their creativity. And we did – we closed our mouths and acted – and then we had the right [to be in that space]. Most brands forget the need to contribute to the culture.

There are artists who will just take a cheque. But how about you sit with that artist and say, ‘You’re amazing, we’re trying to accomplish this… But what do you want to do?’. That’s a mindset of contribution – of contributing to and building culture, not just borrowing it temporarily and pretending to be cool… That way, the people who love that culture will go, ‘Whoa, I can’t believe XYZ brand did that!’. That’s way better than, ‘XYZ brand paid ABC artist to paint that wall’.

MAS> Finding that balance between what the artist wants and what the brand needs can be tricky – how do you build that trust and navigate that?

Geoff> It's not easy. It would be way easier for me to just call you up and say, ‘Go get me a song’, to write a cheque and be done. That’s super easy – and there are times when that works just fine. But don’t tell me at the same time that you're trying to really be part of what’s happening in culture. You can be a sponsor of culture, and there’s a massive machine set up for you to do exactly that. But if you actually want to become a meaningful part of culture, you’ve got to get your hands dirty.

Years ago, for Converse’s 100th anniversary, our agency brought us the idea of ‘Three Artists, One Song’. We picked an artist, asked them to choose two others they wanted to collaborate with, and had them come together to write a track. We’d make a video, release it and then turn it into a commercial. The first one we did was with Pharrell and I remember him asking me, ‘What if you don’t like the song?’. And I said, ‘It doesn’t really matter. Just don’t be mean to anybody’. He said, ‘I don’t believe you. I think you’ll make me change it if you don’t like it’. Then he asked, ‘Do I have to sing about Converse?’. I said, ‘Please – no. We want to legitimately create a piece of art’. He still didn’t believe us.

^{Above: Converse - ‘My Drive Thru’  with Pharrell, Julian Casablancas, Santigold}

A month later, we were back in the conference room in New York City. Pharrell comes in with the track, hits play, and just stares at me. I’m the dorkiest dude you’ll ever meet, sitting there like, ‘Yeah, this is amazing’ – but I had no idea if it actually was… He asks, ‘Do you want me to change anything?’. I say, ‘Do you want to change anything?’. He says, ‘No’. I say, ‘Then don’t change anything’. He still doesn’t believe us.

I said, ‘Dude, let me tell you something. We make sneakers. You make music. We’re not going to cross that line. If you say this is the song, then it’s the song’. And that moment opened the door. We went on to do 10 more of those tracks.

And it all started at Rubber Tracks [Converse's undiscovered artists programme and recording studio] with two promises: Firstly, we’re not going to make you famous – if you become famous, it’s probably because you’re really good. And secondly, don’t go in that room and use your platform to hurt people. Say what you want, but don’t use it to create hate.

MAS> As one of the most iconic combinations of brand and music, it might surprise people how hands-off the brand was with that project!

Geoff> It was! We hired Grammy-winning producers and engineers, and put great equipment in the studio – even one of David Bowie’s old pianos. It was an amazing room. It’s a condo building now, dude. I drove past it recently – it just broke my heart.

MAS> Do brands have an appetite for projects like that now? How could a CMO sell something like that internally?

Geoff> We looked at artists as our core consumer. Your core consumer is someone you’re supposed to serve. And kids who were in bands were our core consumer, so it wasn’t about getting them to do more for us; it was about connecting more deeply with them, showing them how much we appreciated what they were doing. We already had a competitive advantage – not because of anything we did, but because the Chuck [Taylor] had been passed down from generation to generation, starting with punk rock. We thought, ‘Wow, that’s our core consumer... and we’re ignoring them? Wait a minute! Let’s go ask them what we should do’.

It actually started in China around 2009. We were working with two punk rock bands in Beijing, and we asked them, ‘If we could spend our marketing money to be useful to you, what would that look like?’. One of the bands said they’d always wanted to play their music outside of Beijing. There was no touring infrastructure. Creativity wasn’t encouraged. So we bought a bus, put two bands in it, and took them to five or six cities during the Beijing Olympics. We shot a documentary… telling a story that could’ve happened anywhere – of kids with a dream to play music. It ended up being one of the best campaigns of the year during the Beijing Olympics. That’s when we realised we were onto something. And all we did was ask what we could do to help.

We brought this back to Brooklyn and started asking bands there, What do you need? Bands like Matt and Kim – who were friends of ours – told us they rehearsed at 9am on a Wednesday. Do you know how hard it is to rock out at 9 in the morning, midweek? So they needed a rehearsal space, a place to record… We wanted to give them the blank canvas, and give them the space and opportunity to do that. For us, it just felt natural.

So, start there! If you do something good for someone, chances are that if they’re asked about you, they’ll say something nice. Do good, and trust that people will see it as truly unselfish!

These artists are impossible to market to, so instead you contribute to them. You adopt the mindset of a modern-day Medici. How can I be a contributor to the arts, but also a participant at the same time? Find your core consumer and serve them. And find interesting ways to do that. Most marketers do things to and at people. Instead, what if you did things with and for people?

For us, it was about believing in something… We weren’t trying to be the brand that took credit for the next cool thing. We were trying to be the brand that provided an opportunity for people to speak through their art. We recorded with over 3,000 artists, and if one becomes the next big thing, that means 2,999 didn’t. The one probably isn’t going to remember us. But the 2,999 will never forget us. They’ll go on to be teachers, mothers, fathers, doctors, scientists – the ones making the world more interesting. And they’ll carry us with them.

I like that a whole lot more than I like fame. We got enamoured with celebrating and being part of the process of creativity. And man, it taught us so much. I’m a better human being because of it, and the people I met. It made all of our lives so much more fulfilled.

MAS> And that takes guts, right? Knowing the short lifespan of marketers, especially in the CMO roles.

Geoff> Listen, CMOs – you're going to get fired. You don’t last very long if you sit on your ass and don’t have the courage to do anything. And you also don’t last very long if you do have the courage to do something crazy – and it works. You’re still going to get fired, so why let that be your litmus test for success? The greatest sports coaches in the world – they’ve all been fired, and then they go coach another team… It’s the same in the business world.

Even if you stay at a company for a long time, you're probably not going to be the CMO for long. And you know what? You shouldn’t be. Brands deserve fresh perspective. If you're there too long, you become that guest who’s overstayed their welcome. The brand needs you to move on, and you need to move on.

So why be scared? Treat the knowledge that you're going to get fired as motivation. As liberation. Yeah, it sucks when you get fired. But I’d rather have the mindset of: ‘I did some shit while I was here’. Not, ‘Man, I should have... I could have…’

As a CMO, you realise you’re sitting in the middle of this enormous marketing machine. Your ad agency says, ‘We should make an ad’. Your media agency says, ‘You need to spend more on media’. Your social team says, ‘You’ve got to amp up your socials’. Your experiential team says, ‘You’re not doing enough experiences’. Everyone is in it for their own self-interest, and if you don’t take a minute to realise that, you can easily get sucked into thinking, ‘I do need to make more ads. I do need to spend more on media…’.

And when it doesn’t work? You get fired. But those companies? They continue on. So it’s understanding that you’re in the middle of the machine and you should be pulling the levers, not the other way round. That’s why most marketers get fired. They just get in the machine and they’re chasing it all.

MAS> Everyone is envious of the brands who do this brave work - but who is actually ready to go out on a limb? Can anyone achieve that same mindset?

Geoff> If you ask marketers who they admire, 99 out of 100 are going to say the same thing: Apple and Nike. So many marketers are focused on ‘how do we make more money?’, meanwhile Apple is focused on creating things people love – unbeatable products that spark desire – so they’ll make money as a result. They’re unapologetic about what it costs, because it’s worth it.

At Converse, under Nike, [former CEO] Mark Parker had the mantra ‘edit to amplify’. We’d go into product reviews with 100 pairs of shoes laid out, and he’d ask, ‘What’s the one?... Pick one and elevate it’. Eight months later, we’re at the in-store launch, and ‘the one’ is there – but so is a second and third thing. He walks in and says, ‘Huh. Come with me for a second’. He takes me to UNIQLO down the street and says, ‘Look around – what do you think they want me to buy?’. They had six colours of V-neck sweaters stacked from floor to ceiling… ‘I think they want you to buy a V-neck sweater’.
He said, ‘Sometimes, you just have to tell people what you want them to buy – and do it in a meaningful way. So next time, I want the one thing’. Lesson learned!

MAS> That’s such a valuable lesson – asking ‘what do you want people to buy here?’ when you’re trying to break through and speak louder.

Geoff> Sometimes you have to step back and ask how you can do something differently. We now compete outside of our categories because marketers are all doing the same thing – ‘ooh we’ve got to do AI… we better do AI… it’s amazing… it’s going to change the world…’ – but lots of things are going to change the world! The Rolling Stones changed the world!

Everyone’s chasing that right now; so you have time to get that. Let them run. Let them make all the mistakes. While they’re doing that, I’m going over here [instead]. It’s super hard to make any noise in a crowded, loud room. But if I step into a quieter room, and speak at a normal volume? It’s a whole lot easier to make noise and be heard.

So go find the quiet space! Go find where others aren’t occupying right now. You’re not missing out; there will always be time to chase the next thing. But there’s no time like now to find the unique, quiet place where you can make some noise in a way that’s true to your brand – and useful to your consumers. It’s not that hard to figure out. It’s just hard work. It’s hard work to have the courage to step out on your own. But once you do? People start following you, instead of you following them.

Nirvana came out of nowhere, and most people said, ‘That’s noise. That’s weird. Those guys should take a shower’. But they didn’t care - they weren’t doing it for them. And suddenly people started to pay attention to what was happening in Seattle. And finally, we all shifted because they were hearing and feeling something for themselves.

And it’s the same thing as a marketer. Do you want to be in a room where everyone plays the same shit, without really saying anything? The originals get a lot of criticism, but it’s so much more fun to go out swinging and be original than to be fired for being the same. Dude, just be Nirvana… You’re gonna get fired anyway!