Bossing It: Jo Lumb and Katie Hunter on Encouraging an Open Culture
Jo Lumb joined Wonderhood Studios in January 2023 to co-found and launch Wonderhood Makers: its social-first content studio. Previously, Jo founded and launched We Are Social Studios in 2018; a standalone production department specialised in creating multi-platform content for We Are Social’s roster of global brands – including adidas, Pepsi, LEGO, Dr Martens, Samsung, Vodafone, Sky.
Jo was named in The Drum’s 50 under 30 in 2018, Campaign’s Agency Star Player in 2021 and has won numerous industry awards including BIMA, Lovies and The Webby's. Jo regularly contributes to industry thought pieces, formed part of the BIMA creative council, and served as a Cannes Lions Juror 2020/21 for Film Craft.
Katie Hunter co-founded Wonderhood Makers, the social content division of Wonderhood Studios in January 2023. After moving into the world of social and influencer marketing from consumer PR, Katie has worked at agencies PrettyGreen and OMD UK and more recently led the social content and influencer offering of Accenture Song (formerly Karmarama).
Here she was responsible for leading strategy and creative content to drive integration across ATL, creators, social and digital media, and grew the agency’s earned, owned and paid capabilities to create award-winning work for clients including The British Army, Institute of Coding, NCS, Arla and Plusnet.
Prior to that, Katie was director of social and content at OMD UK, where she led on the strategy and implementation of social content, influencer and community management work for clients including Doritos, Grey Goose, Hasbro, Citroen, Walkers and Naked smoothies.
Katie was one of Management Today’s 35 Under 35 in 2022, and is a founding member of Ok Mentor, a mentoring and coaching initiative to get more women into creative industries. Her work there as well as with entry-level talent at Karmarama won her Campaign’s Female Frontiers Mentor of the Year in the same year.
LBB> What was your first experience of leadership?
Jo> Coming from a production background, you naturally assume a 'leadership' role as a producer before necessarily realising you’re doing it. I think I found quite early on I really enjoyed and thrived in the element of bringing different roles, people and ultimately personalities together for a common goal.
This was something that then transferred into a more structured form as I grew within my own career, and started to build teams to develop project and company growth.
Katie> As a very unprepared account manager in my mid-twenties, tasked with managing some very fun, but dangerously rogue account execs through a summer of festival activations and wildly important client projects. The autonomy was career changing, but it was a case of growing up quickly, for sure.
LBB> How did you figure out what kind of leader you wanted to be – or what kind of leader you didn’t want to be?
Katie> I’ve had some utterly amazing leaders from day one and to be honest, a lot of it is borrowed from them. Similarly, some not so inspiring ones who have helped me to understand what I don’t want and what I don’t like to see in myself.
You go through more and more ‘grown up’ situations as you progress and you work it out from trial and error, but I do know that I have always wanted a team to see me working hard and know that I am happy to get stuck in and get behind them. I’d hope mutual respect comes from that, and you get more out of people.
Jo> I think initially a lot of this comes from knowing how you want to show up at work as an individual. As you progress, it’s then much more about how you build and grow a team around you who are all motivated in their roles.
I agree with Katie in that I have definitely learnt a lot through observing others, and I think it’s really important to always be self-aware. We will all get things wrong, but how do you reflect on that, learn from it, and apply those learnings in the future to make sure you stay the kind of leader you want to be, and continue to grow into a better one.
LBB> What experience or moment gave you your biggest lesson in leadership?
Katie> You always learn the most from the crap stuff and any difficult scenario involving people and the team is a huge lesson for me, and I’m sure will continue to be. The first time having to discipline someone was – honestly – horrendous and I don’t think it’s something I’ll ever get used to, but it taught me a lot about my own responses to situations like that, and managing my own emotions when things are testing.
Jo> I’ll echo Katie here, I think when you’re faced with having to make, or action, business decisions that you wouldn’t necessarily choose to do on a 'personal' level, it really forces you to separate yourself. I remember pretty early on in my career the wise words a creative director I really looked up to gave me which was to, “take the emotion out”. And it’s a phrase that has stuck with me in difficult situations.
That is not to say to not be empathetic and understanding, but more so being able to take a step back and see a situation more holistically before responding.
LBB> Did you know you always wanted to take on a leadership role? If so how did you work towards it and if not, when did you start realising that you had it in you?
Jo> I think this has always been a natural part of my personality for sure. Again, thinking back to my early career as a producer you really have to adapt your working and management style based on the various people and personalities involved in any one project. "The Psychology of Producing” is definitely a thing!
As I developed my career, I naturally started to apply this to the team around me, and I think this is so important to be a successful leader – there is no one size fits all approach and you really have to be aware of how to adapt your own management style to be able to get the best out of people as individuals.
Katie> Honestly, yes. But it didn’t look like this to me when I started. For a start I expected to be a lot more poised! I’ve tackled it one step and one decision at a time for most of my career, but I definitely didn’t have a clear picture of what leadership was going to look like for me, or how I’d get there until it started to happen.
What I have learnt, is that I’m a very different leader to how I thought I’d be.
LBB> When it comes to 'leadership' as a skill, how much do you think is a natural part of personality, how much can be taught and learned?
Jo> I do think people can be more naturally inclined to be better leaders, you need to have empathy, awareness, but also be able to lead with conviction and steer a ship through tough times. But I don’t think there’s anything that can’t be taught, provided someone wants to learn. Growth and development should always be a part of someone’s career, no matter how experienced you are, the areas you grow in will just naturally change over time.
Katie> A lot has got to be in there from the start, as it takes a lot of time and effort and often resilience but I don’t think it’s a ‘gift’ or natural, no. If you have the drive and enthusiasm for it then I do believe it’s something that can be taught, and I know plenty of incredible leaders who make it look effortless but will tell you they never stop learning.
LBB> What are the aspects of leadership that you find most personally challenging? And how do you work through them?
Katie> Now? It’s self-belief and conviction in making the right decisions. The more senior you become, the fewer people there are to ask and you really do just have to trust that you know what you’re doing. Fortunately I have a business partner who is a brilliant sounding board but you do have to overcome a that self-doubt and second guessing.
Jo> Katie and I both left senior positions at agencies where we’d spent a long time building our careers, the respect of our peers, and our body of work before joining Makers.
While the entrepreneurial side of starting something new is so fun and exciting, it is of course a challenge to go again pretty much from scratch, with no guarantee that what you’re doing will be a success. I think I’ve really had to have patience here – patience in proving myself in a new environment, patience in winning work, and in building a team that can then allow us to deliver work that we’re proud of.
It doesn’t all just happen overnight, but when you’ve put the work in and you start to see the results with those people around you, there is no better feeling!
LBB> Have you ever felt like you've failed whilst in charge? How did you address the issue and what did you learn from it?
Katie> Of course! Some failures last an hour and some you’ll remember for the rest of your career, but I don’t think we’d be human if we hadn’t mucked it up at some point. Again though, having a great team around you that see the work you put in and the passion you have will always help with moving forward and you’ve just got to understand where you went wrong and use it to your advantage in the future.
Jo> We would not be human to not fail at some point in our careers. I truly think that if you have made honest decisions with the right intentions, then any 'failure' can be used as a learning opportunity in the future.
Be that immediately or later down the line. It's also in these times you learn what kind of leader you want to become – from experience, an open, honest culture and being able to address issues head on goes a long way to being able to resolve them in the best way for everyone.
LBB> In terms of leadership and openness, what’s your approach there? Do you think it’s important to be as transparent as possible in the service of being authentic? Or is there a value in being careful and considered?
Jo> Absolutely, transparency is important. Your team need to feel respected, empowered, and that they really are part of a team. Katie and I definitely encourage an open culture, however there are of course times where difficult decisions need to be made, or conversations need to be had, and the communication plan of those decisions needs to be managed in the best interest of the people they will ultimately affect.
Katie> I wholeheartedly agree with Jo on this, that transparency and openness are crucial. A tricky conversation or situation is much easier and more productive to have if you have strong relationships and a lot of trust, and that only comes from authenticity and honesty. You don’t have to lose consideration and care as a result of that, either, both things can be true and we strive for that.
LBB> As you developed your leadership skills did you have a mentor, if so who were/are they and what have you learned? And on the flip side, do you mentor any aspiring leaders and how do you approach that relationship?
Katie> I am obsessed with mentorship and I just do not believe that anyone can thrive without it, whether that’s providing it or receiving it. For me, the best mentors have come at all stages of my career in different guises, whether that was Sarah Henderson (group MD at PrettyGreen) who got me through some very testing account management years, or ex-clients who have shared invaluable advice and information over the years.
I also think peer-to-peer mentoring can be super helpful and there are lots of women (Liz Stone, founder at OK COOL or Stef Stanly at LinkedIn) who I tap into daily for their insights. We also run Ok Mentor together for women looking to get into creative, which allows me to share my own knowledge with lots of exciting and inspiring women.
LBB> In continually changing market circumstances, how do you cope with the responsibility of leading a team through difficult waters?
Jo> Probably the most difficult time I have had as a leader was post covid, when a high proportion of my then-team resigned in a very short space of time. This was largely a consequence of the market, and not having the natural staff turnover you would have had in a two year period, however it was hard not to take it personally!
But I had to put the business and the team first: Keep the people who were still there motivated, support those who were moving on, work on a hiring strategy to plug gaps not only in the immediate, but longer term, and ultimately ensure there wasn’t a financial burden in this time of change, and client relationships were protected.
We weathered the storm, but I definitely had to put aside personal feelings (even of just my own burn-out) and keep focused on setting the team up for future success.
Katie> Like Jo, any big team changes are challenging and run the risk of being hugely demotivating for people, leaders included. The peaks and troughs of new business wins and losses can also be quite difficult to manage, and that’s a big part of our business and industry and something that is never going to change.
Having the ability to remain headstrong and positive, whilst acknowledging that things aren’t easy, is hugely important and it’s crucial that the team understand that you’ve got their back and that you know where they’re coming from.
To Jo’s point, you’ve got to take the personal feelings out of it, at the office at least, as people are looking to you for guidance and example in those situations.
LBB> As a leader, what are some of the ways in which you’ve prioritised diversity and inclusion within your workforce?
Katie> What we’ve loved about building Makers is that we have been able to put the team together from scratch in the way we want. Diversity of people, thought, experience and working styles has been a real focus for us, and the work is better for it.
As an industry, there’s a lot of work to be done, and the intention is there, but we’ll remain dedicated to making sure that we’re building an inclusive environment for people and adapting processes to maintain that.
Jo> This has been so important for Katie and I, and building Makers has been such an amazing opportunity to be able to lead by the example we want to set. As Katie says, there are many different components to ensure D&I, not only is it so important from an opportunity perspective, but also the diversity of experience and thinking to challenge the work we create.
LBB> How important is your company culture to the success of your business? And how have you managed to keep it alive with increases in remote and hybrid working patterns?
Jo> From day one, Katie and I were really aligned on the way we want to do business, which I am super grateful for considering that we were .match-made'! I think that’s also been a benefit of establishing Makers when we have: although working patterns are changing, we’re a new division with the opportunity to do so many exciting things, and really inform our own culture as we grow, which naturally brings a real energy to the day-to-day.
We’re also so fortunate to have established client relationships that really share this energy and ambition, and in turn create true partnerships.
Katie> We’re relatively new as a division and so the culture is something that is ever growing and shifting as people join and the work develops which is really exciting. Fortunately, we’re also part of a bigger agency at Wonderhood that has a great culture and we have clients who foster very similar values and working practices.
It’s always been a big thing for Jo and I to work with people who we respect, who respect us, and who were can genuinely and successful work to goals with, and an authentic and interesting company culture is key to that.
LBB> What are the most useful resources you’ve found to help you
Jo> I really am such a learn by doing person, always being inquisitive, self-aware and interested in other people (both in and outside of work, and even our own industry) has helped me and developed my career growth so much over the years. Also seeking feedback from everyone around you - 'upwards feedback' can sometimes be the most helpful there is. As we touched on earlier having a mentor and having the opportunity to mentor others is invaluable.
Katie> Other people, mainly. Watching, learning, asking for help and sharing what you’ve learnt have been huge in helping me to grow in my own career. But more tangibly, there are a couple of reads that I have recommended to a lot of other leaders at different points of their career.
'The First 90 Days' by Michael D Watkins is brilliant for anyone about to take on a new, big and daunting challenge, and I was once given 'The Hard Thing About Hard Things' by a CEO of mine of which is a frank and realistic look at what running any business is like.
My new favourite is 'Radical Candor' by Kim Scott (and there’s a great podcast) that tackles a lot of the personal, emotional and cultural challenges of running a team or company. There’s a lot to take from it, at all levels, and I wish more people would read it!
